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Old 08-09-2021, 12:57 AM   #1
TheLoganZilla
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Question Engine Vibration after Manual Swap

Hi everyone,

I just finally completed my CD009 Transmission swap -- or at least completed to a driveable level. Everything feels pretty good except for the fact that the car has developed a very noticeable vibration at certain RPMs. It can be strong enough to make the seats shake. I notice it especially in middle gears, but I have a feeling that may be due to increased load due to acceleration. Below 2300 rpm it feels normal, then from 2400 up it seems to get progressively worse. I do not think it is the driveshaft because at any speed if I clutch in or put it in neutral and let off the gas, the vibrations go back to normal levels. I am worried that it may be the flywheel or harmonic balancer, but any other ideas are welcome.

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Logan
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Old 08-09-2021, 05:15 AM   #2
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Does it do it with the car in neutral, stationary?
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Old 08-09-2021, 12:35 PM   #3
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Yes it does, though it appears to be slightly less pronounced than when under load.
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Old 08-09-2021, 03:11 PM   #4
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obvious things sometimes being overlooked, are the motor mounts good?
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Old 08-09-2021, 03:23 PM   #5
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What did you do for a transmission mount? My T5 was miserable until I added some pieces of rubber between the frame and cross member.
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Old 08-09-2021, 04:17 PM   #6
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Motor mounts still appear to be good. Nominal amount of engine movement under acceleration. I used a polyurethane bushing between the transmission and the crossmember. That may be contributing to the vibration as I have never used a poly bushing before and may just be experiencing normal vibration. I did discover a loose plug wire that did appear to correct some of the feeling, and I believe that the transmission I bought may actually have a worn input shaft bearing, as it is noisy even in neutral with the clutch out. Hopefully what I’m feeling is just normal for a stiffer bushing setup; any other ideas?
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Old 08-12-2021, 03:45 PM   #7
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Hopefully what I’m feeling is just normal for a stiffer bushing setup;
Ah yes, the dream scenario. Good luck with that.

I can't think of any reason for vibration that doesn't involve either balance (offset weights rotating) or alignment (U-joint angles.) You've eliminated the latter, by coasting in neutral and watching vibration disappear. Since it vibrates when you rev it up, car not moving, that points to engine... but presumably you didn't change anything there, and presumably the engine wasn't vibrating prior.

So... clutch pressure plate out of balance? Missing a bolt?
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Old 08-13-2021, 12:33 AM   #8
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Stiff transmission mounts transfer a lot of vibration into the car, for sure. If you had an automatic transmission before, they dampen engine vibration more than a manual transmission as well.
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Old 08-13-2021, 01:00 PM   #9
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Seems par for the course. B230s are naturally buzzy. Volvo’s solution on later cars was a combination of soft mounts, a heavy tuned mass damper for a crank pulley, and an even heavier flywheel.

You take those elements away and the result is quite the connected feeling.

On the other hand, we can’t get a feel for how severe the vibration is without firsthand experience. It could be either mild for redblock standards or bad enough to make interior pieces fall off.
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Old 08-13-2021, 01:03 PM   #10
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What is your driveshaft situation? Is it straight, balanced, no funky angles at u-joints?

Transmission centered in the chassis with a good x-member?

Maybe it is just the poly and some bad motor mounts? Can you get a "stock" rubber transmission mount to swap in and test?
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Old 08-13-2021, 01:35 PM   #11
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I had a mystery engine vibration recently. Turned out #2 spark pug wire was about 1/4 inch off of the plug.
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Old 08-13-2021, 03:28 PM   #12
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Can you get a "stock" rubber transmission mount to swap in and test?
^^^ Best suggestion right there.
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Old 08-17-2021, 12:52 PM   #13
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Hi everyone, sorry for the delayed response, I’ve been driving across the country to move into university. I like the idea of the rubber mount, a couple other mechanically minded friends of mine have suggested the same, so I’ll be looking for one in the same style as the poly mount I’ve used. Unfortunately, as a result of not exactly knowing what was causing the noises and vibration, and also a bad experience with the shifter I bought from Autosports engineering, I decided that driving the car 2000 miles wasn’t a good idea. So I won’t be able to test any of these good suggestions until winter time. I am proud of myself for finishing the swap in a drivable way in under 2 months, but it was inevitable that there would be a couple small issues I’d need to solve but wouldn’t have time. I’ll update this post or make another one as soon as I’m able to work on the car again, and as I said before, any other ideas are always appreciated. Also, would people here appreciate a review of the shifter I purchased? I haven’t seen anyone else mention it. Thank you.
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Old 08-17-2021, 01:53 PM   #14
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I would love to know more about the shifter, for one thing.

Also, for what it's worth, with stiff motor mounts my experience has been that a rubber mount can actually make the vibrations worse. You want them all to have roughly the same natural frequency.
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Old 08-17-2021, 02:09 PM   #15
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I read an article on another forum about a manual conversion that was done on a toyota pickup that had similar sounding issues with vibration after the swap. turned out in his case he had a pilot bearing that was too large ID and caused a mean shake under load but not any other time. I'm not familiar with the CD009 swap, but you may want to make sure the parts used were all correct dimensionally if you had to measure and find things to work. Just a thought.
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Old 08-17-2021, 02:11 PM   #16
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turned out in his case he had a pilot bearing that was too large ID and caused a mean shake under load but not any other time.
Oh that'd be bad. I do know that there were some variances in the input shafts of those transmissions too, so it could definitely be a factor.
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Old 08-17-2021, 07:03 PM   #17
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I’ll write up a review soon, I’d post that to the performance section as well I assume. As for the pilot bearing, it came with the deeworks kit. I do remember checking to make sure that it fit the input shaft before I installed it into the crank, but I have my suspicions about it as well. I’m a little concerned I may have crushed it while I was installing the transmission, though I figure it’d make a terrible noise if that we’re the case. Has anyone else experienced the motor mount frequency issue? I can’t say I’ve ever heard of it, but I’m open ears to the possibility.
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Old 05-26-2022, 04:35 PM   #18
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Exclamation Post Resurrection and new info

Hi everyone, I?m resurrecting the post with some new info. I yanked the trans back out a couple days ago to do some double checking and swapping of parts. While the trans is out I?ve been doing a little bit more testing on what exactly is the root cause for my vibrations. Firstly, with the transmission out, the vibration issue is an order of magnitude less severe, but still barely noticeable. At roughly 2400 rpm the whole cabin buzzes just a little bit, and by 3000 it?s gone again. So that writes out the pilot bearing as the root cause or any other transmission imbalances. I?ve checked the engine mounts and they really don?t look like the issue either; neither are collapsed and the engine, while stiffly mounted, can still shimmy a little when I push on it. It always springs back into position. That leaves me with three options as I see it: The pressure plate/clutch/flywheel are out of balance, the harmonic balancer is busted, or the vibration is normal and the poly bushing is just amplifying it a lot. Is there some way for me to write out the balancer as a factor? And does anyone else notice a small vibration in their car right at 2500 ish rpm? I?ll be posting a little more about my experiences to do with this swap in the coming weeks as I remember to, is there anything in specific that people want to know?
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Old 05-26-2022, 11:04 PM   #19
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That’s just 2nd order resonant vibration. This is why Volvo used a 30 lb flywheel and 10 lb harmonic balancer coupled with mushy soft mounts. 96mm bore FTL.
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Old 05-26-2022, 11:32 PM   #20
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That?s just 2nd order resonant vibration. This is why Volvo used a 30 lb flywheel and 10 lb harmonic balancer coupled with mushy soft mounts. 96mm bore FTL.
Gotcha, just happens that the engine happens to resonate at about that rpm is what you're saying I take it. And with a lighter flywheel and much stiffer transmission bushing, I feel the effects greatly. So other people with stiffer bushings/different flywheels also notice a similar vibration?
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Old 05-27-2022, 12:24 AM   #21
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Yep. There’s a whole thread on the topic. Those of us with T5s have it particularly buzzy.

That mentioned, you should post video.
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Old 05-27-2022, 01:21 AM   #22
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Yep. There?s a whole thread on the topic. Those of us with T5s have it particularly buzzy.

That mentioned, you should post video.
Will do. Have a wedding to go to first in SLC, but then it?s back to reinstalling the trans. Should be able to get a good video of the vibration then.
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Old 05-27-2022, 06:26 PM   #23
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That?s just 2nd order resonant vibration. This is why Volvo used a 30 lb flywheel and 10 lb harmonic balancer coupled with mushy soft mounts. 96mm bore FTL.
You can only be sure of that by testing the frequency of the vibration. And half engine rpm (misfire) is also 2nd order.
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Old 05-27-2022, 09:50 PM   #24
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You can only be sure of that by testing the frequency of the vibration. And half engine rpm (misfire) is also 2nd order.
Would you be able to elaborate on this a little bit so I can understand better? When you say testing the frequency, how would I go about that? Are there other symptoms I could see that would indicate misfire? And when you guys say 2nd order, are you talking about the order of a modeling ODE or something else?
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Old 05-27-2022, 10:41 PM   #25
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I suspect the rubber dampened crank pulley is partly to dampen pulsation/crank deflection from the power stroke on #1 on the new smaller bearing journal cast crank engine?

Not the kind of thing w/ larger inline 4 buzz vibes/noise the driver is likely to actually feel, hear or perceive…
Inline 6 engines with much narrower bores that we don’t *hear* the vibes from often have more rubber/damper there with the long crank, among other reasons…

As to the dished flywheel, I suspect that’s more an across the board change?;
reduced pedal effort (larger clutch swept area, lighter pressure plate springs on n/a models, especially for equivalent torque capacity, longer clutch life to cut down (potential) warranty claims), tall fuel economy & minimal crankcase windage oriented gears in most all models by ‘87 / no more carbed 2.0/2.1 or larger cam/shorter final drive models remained in all markets by then;

1 parts bin, no real sport model those years, stump puller 1st gear in compliance with the very stringent Swiss law to take off fully loaded on steep grades, less burning the clutch getting out of steep hills/driveways loaded down in the 4cyl 5-7 seat mid-size family car? Make sense?
Doubt it has to do with vibes that we hear/feel, really?

I think they just had some clutches & flywheels to use up for 85 & 86 n/a models; all turbo models already had the dished flywheel by then…

Not sure I buy that the flywheel & damper on the crank makes all that much difference? (In what we hear/feel for NVH?).

In fact, my low mile flat flywheel 1986 beater M46 245s ran quieter than their fatter rod/more reciprocating weight w/more tooling drift/worse balancing from the factory I suspect dished flywheel big rod 90+ cousins (engine noise/vibes resonant thru the drivetrain wise, anyway?)?
Tho, the later model car was quieter overall of course, particularly the last of the cloth seat 244s 92-93…

As to auto or manual, the main shaft is longer in the M46 than Aw, so I’d say namely that the fluid filled converter (& its clutch if equipped) dampen power pulsation moreso than the trans itself…accumulator function for shifts & little if any damping on the clutches & steels in the Aw otherwise…

Trans mount shenanigans & the springs in the clutch disc can transmit a significant amount of noise as can solid torque rod bushings.

The tri-pod engine mountings in shear should absorb the inline 4 up and down buzz reasonably well, but if dimensions change or one mount is bearing a lot more load or weight that can throw it all off & make for lots of cabin noise…

M47 models with the rectangular mount farther (stiffer up & down) back compared to other manual trans models w/lighter alloy cases gearbox used a wider spacing rubber dampened (at the mounting bolts) x-member as opposed to other models with the trans x-member being hard mounted metal-metal to the body.

Models with larger stiffer driveline use a rubber damper on the rear of the driveline (even the odd m51 v6 cars) or the guibo flex disc thing on m47 240s and all but early inline 6 700 diesel manual models.

The rear rubber vibe damper never seems to go bad in normal use before other parts fail/break in my experience on the large driveline M46 models & you don’t really notice it being so mushy on the clutch take-up like the flex disc on the trans output flange (tho stiffer discs were available & used on some Volvo models, butwas thinking if the M5 application flex disc…) , but no way to really service or replace the damper on models with rear section driveline damper, either?
3rd engine mount in rubber doesn’t seem to add vibes except on initial startup/ cranking…

Some of the 1980 model 242s I’ve had/driven were built crooked…but that was a road speed resonance thing…

Some late model cars had some noise from the axle & had rubber weights clamped to it. You see that on mid-late cycle cars sometimes…Volvo had some problems with them in warranty….

I went thru noise shens with the SR5 to GT-S AE86 bits (factory T50 which is a lot like a tighter tolerance Japanese copy of a borg warner T5, but smaller trans over-all) until I installed the rear rubber damper GTS driveline (same u-joint sizes except rear for the GTS LSD axle I had for it) but the SR5 driveline was much the same otherwise…
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