injector upgrade

[apachechef]

Originally Posted by gross polluter

It's difficult to forget certain people on this forum whose summation of posts is horrible advice, devoid of any knowledge or logic. You are one of them.

you got an apology, a request to make peace, and thanks for the information you told me in this thread, and you still reply as above?

Sorry for insulting you, please accept my apologies.

can we make peace?

Thanks for listing X-tau accel enrichment, I'll read up on it.

Weird that you have such a grude, but mistakenly think I've ever said anything about megasquirt.

so again,
Sorry for insulting you, please accept my apologies.
Can we make peace?

[apachechef]

For those interested in "port soak"
here's a video I found by searching for X-tau, cool info, magnitude of the issue became easier to grasp at 14:00 or so, prof says the puddle is about 6x an injector pulse.
Neato.

[Otto Mattik]

I found some 850 injectors (....746 ) cheap at a boneyard, and put in my 240. Start up is mildy improved and idle a bit smoother, not much different beyond that.

* It's possible that the later injectors were just cleaner ?

[BillyMaysHere]

[QUOTE=Otto Mattik;5503345
* It's possible that the later injectors were just cleaner ?[/QUOTE]

ja I think thats a major factor.

[klr142]

Bump...

Originally Posted by gross polluter

Back to my old NA 8V. During my testing I found that GM LS2 injectors have the identical spray pattern as stock 8V injectors. A little large for NA, but this is advantageous as injector events are shorter and can be more precisely timed. I characterized the offset and dynamic flow rate of each injector and was able to implement that data into MS2 as it allowed for individual injector characterizing. Spending countless hours on the dyno I was able to map out a solid VE table and injector timing table. The end result was a bone stock 245 (with exception of B cam) that averaged 25mpg city and 36mpg highway. Throttle response was crisp, and AFR during cruising would hold 16.0:1 without fluctuating even a single tenth.

Do you have a part number for those injectors, by any chance? Or model for me to look them up from? I'm suffering from tailpipe emissions that bounce from excessive HC to excessive CO and anywhere in between. I did just reset my computers and toss in 25% E85, but I am also running some Pink body injectors that are from a newer P2 car with likely a wider spray pattern than wanted. I have passed emissions with them two years ago, but only just. I'm not sure why things are so erratic at the moment but having the wrong injector isn't going to help and from the sounds of things, this could be a symptom of the wrong injectors causing port soak. I'd be interested in getting something larger in there with the proper spray to better match my setups(also have another 8V non-turbo with what should be 175+hp).

EDIT: Nevermind, see below.

[Sparkles]

I'd be really interested to know if there's something around the 60lb mark with a narrow cone. I was going to use Siemens Deka 60lb injectors but they have a 30 degree cone.

[klr142]

Originally Posted by klr142

Do you have a part number for those LS2 injectors, by any chance? Or model for me to look them up from?

Nevermind... I went and re-read your thread linked below and it does not sound like they will be a good match for LH2.4 factory tuning.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=157001

[klr142]

So, seriously, is there a high Z injector that flows more than the stock LH2.4 B230F non-turbo injector out there with the proper flow pattern for our signal intake valve engines???

[James M]

850T5 injectors? 315cc I believe, they where my first choice when doing a +t. Not sure about spray pattern but they worked well

[klr142]

They work fine and have the proper spray pattern still for an 8V, but they're still the EV1, pintle style injector.

[mblue240]

Originally Posted by klr142

They “work”, and I’ve run similar before(the “brown” T6 and 2.5T injectors), but I’m trying to get something with the proper, narrow spray pattern.

The 850 still had the old fashioned spray pattern. I have a set of orange top injectors you're welcome to try.

[klr142]

Found the perfect injector information work sheet that you can change narrow down the list by selecting parameters!

Bosch Injector Data Excel work sheet

I still haven't picked anything yet, but you can select the connector type, the spray angle, the overall length, the o-ring to o-ring length, impedance and flow rate! You can verify what the Volvo injectors are, as well. I'll start looking to see what's actually available to buy at a reasonable price later.

Also, here is some important information. Thank you MBlue240 for the part numbers and initial information from your For Sale post. The flow numbers don't necessarily match what I see in the Bosch Injector Data worksheet that you have listed, but here's some notes that I made for each of these injectors from your for sale post.

Originally Posted by mblue240

Brown part number: 0280155831 - 31.8 lbs/hr - 334.2 cc/min - 20° *SPLIT BEAM* spray pattern with 12ohm resistance
Red part number: 0280155759 - 30 lbs/hr - 315.3 cc/min - 25° cone spray pattern with 15.95ohm resistance
Yellow part number:0280155746 - 19 lbs/hr - 199.7 cc/min - 25° cone spray pattern with 15.95ohm resistance
Pink part number: 0280155832 - 22.5 lbs/hr - 236.5 cc/min - 20° *SPLIT BEAM* spray pattern with 12ohm resistance
Grey part number: 0280155702 - 19 lbs/hr - 199.7 cc/min - 25° cone spray pattern with 12ohm resistance
Blue part number: 0280155830 - 33.3 lbs/hr - 350 cc/min - 20° *SPLIT BEAM* spray pattern with 12ohm resistance
White part number: 0280155766 - 33.3 lbs/hr - 350 cc/min - 25° cone spray pattern with 15.95ohm resistance
Orange top part number: 0280150785 - 29.5 lbs/hr - - 19° cone spray pattern with 14.5ohm resistance

Solid colored EV6 injectors from the P80(and P2) Volvos feature a 4 spray nozzle pattern where the old Volvos came with a single spray nozzle. Better atomization of the fuel can lead to a smoother idle and better mpg. On my lightly modded '89 240 NA I averaged 19mpg and had a very lumpy idle. Swapping to the yellow injectors led to a much smoother idle, but about the same fuel mileage. When I put in the pink injectors my idle stayed smooth and I now average around 23mpg. As always "your mileage may vary."

These injectors are not optimal for a single intake valve/port as found on an 8V redblock cylinder head. Ideally, you'd want something closer to the original spray pattern of 18-19° that the original LH2.4 injectors had. Of the injectors posted above, only the EV1, pintle style 850T injector listed at the bottom matches and is a perfect drop in for our 8V redblocks. So, they are still the perfect injector for someone doing a +T that doesn't mind having older technology. For what it's worth, all these injectors will WORK and run in LH2.4 without a resistor pack, they are just not perfect for our application and won't be as smooth or have as efficient of an idle as something with the proper spray pattern. Many people have run them without issues, even I have and currently do, but I am going to find another option to ensure the proper spray pattern to help idle quality and emissions even more. On smaller camshafts with less aggressive overlap/duration, the spray pattern being mismatched may not be as big of a deal, but when you have a package that's not good for idle quality, the proper spray pattern would be a good idea.

See the Bosch Injector Data excel worksheet to verify, it's awesome! You can also enter your part number in the last part of this web address to get the flow data and ohm rating for Bosch injectors. https://www.bosch-automotive-catalog...uct/0280155766

I will continue my research to find injectors that will match that are the EV6(or newer), multi hole design that will be a good match for our 8V redblocks running LH.

[klr142]

I Fiveomotorsport lists this injector as being an upgrade for non-turbo 8V cars(stock flow rate):
"Black Knight" EV6 upgrade(replaces -734): 0 280 155 884 - 19 lbs/hr at 43.5psi, 197 cc/min at 3bar. 15.3ohms. 4-Hole, "wide cone fuel pattern". That info is from their website. When I look it up on the excel work sheet, it says it is a dual beam spray pattern but with a narrow 15° angle, so maybe it's just fine that they have the split beam as long as the angle is narrow enough? The excel worksheet also lists them as 14.5ohm injectors with a flow rate of 196 cc/min at 3bar.

IPD sells this black body EV6 injector as a replacement for LH2.4 non-turbo injectors that are NLA(0 280 150 762, Volvo part # 3517572, 0 280 150 734)
0 280 156 045 - 215 cc/min at 3bar, 14.5ohm and 15° cone spray pattern. - THIS IS THE WAY TO GO IF YOU ARE RUNNING A NON TURBO REDBLOCK AND THEY'RE ONLY $35 NEW!!! Injector duty cycle will be around 100% if you are running 140whp/165hp and the stock LH2.4 3 bar FPR.

https://www.ipdusa.com/products/7127...-fuel-injector

[klr142]

The hunt continues for larger, drop in, EV6 injectors.

I called Bosch for an updated version of the 850T yellow top EV1 injector, but it goes to the red body 0280155759/62687 injectors with the 25° cone spray pattern that isn't wanted for an 8V engine.

The Bosch Injector Data Excel worksheet is an old document and doesn't have a lot of the latest injectors, from what I can determine. So, narrowing things down nicely with that work sheet showed me maybe THREE possible options, of which only the one below appears to be available. I hope there are some newer options I haven't come across yet still out there.

The one injector that seems to be a good solution for a modern turbo sized replacement is used on some Ford products. The 0 280 156 095 / 62264 has a split beam spray pattern but it's a narrow 15° angle with a "spray orientation angle" of 90°. I'm not 100% sure what that means but the Five-O-Motorsport injector that they recommend for N/A 8V engines ALSO has the same narrow 15° split beam pattern with the 90° orientation angle, so it's probably good for our use. Depending on where you look, it seems to be either 303cc/min(29lb/hr) at 3bar or 339cc/min at 3bar(32lb/hr). You can get them on ebay, or Tasca, or other various Ford parts places it seems. I'm not 100% sure which applications in the US used them yet to look for used ones in a yard, but I may end up researching that next. Alternate part numbers are Ford 2M5V-AA and Motorcraft CM5023.

Not done yet.

[klr142]

For a modern but slightly higher capacity non-turbo 8V injector, apparently there is a used Volvo injector option as long as you don't mind changing the injector pigtails. Some of the 2001+ non-turbo 5cyl cars have the 0 280 156 336 / 9470229 EV6 injector that flows about 23lb/hr and 240cc/min at 3bar with a 15° cone spray pattern and 14.5ohm resistance. Grab the pigtail and from the donor car and splice them into your car(or get an adapter, the connector design is USCAR and your original connector is a Jetronic).

https://www.ipdusa.com/products/1020...-fuel-injector

Motor Man has a set of the Denso version here for cheap but they have a different nozzle so I don't know if the spray pattern is different. I don't know the resistance or flow ratings either, but they're for the same car, so...? These Denso versions of the same injector may or may not be problematic as Volvo had a tech bulletin to replace injectors on certain 2001-2002 denso/non-turbo P2 cars with the 6900366 injector kit.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Motor-Man-D...-/291354479998

[K9 240]

One way to mitigate the wider spray pattern is to use the modern slimmer injector in the K-jet injector hole in the head. A modicom of "clearancing" might be involved. I was using the Deka 60lb injectors & when I first read this thread back in 2016 I realised why I had a poor idle/bad emmissions with them. I drilled the K-jet injector hole so that the nozzle was at the end of the hole as per normal. In that position they're close enough to the valve for the wider spray not to be a problem. The fuel rail/regulator needs to be adjusted as well as the injector is deeper in the hole.
I've also seen "long nose" injectors that may be more suitable for the k-jet hole but haven't followed this up.
On the Norwegian thread that Notsofresh mentions in the "Shaving the head for bigger bangs" (post #15) they talk about using a non K-jet head & drilling the bosses which are still present in the later heads, so trying to find a K-jet head would not be a big problem.
I should mention that I was also using the K-jet inlet which does not have injector holes.
I also think the info klr142 is providing in invaluable - I chose my injectors purely on the basis of how much they flowed (well & price too!) - since learnt that there's a lot more involved. It would have been a lot simpler to get the right injector the first time.
Tim

[klr142]

I mentioned using modern injectors in the head to a friend recently who was thinking about adding the Kjet non turbo intake manifold... I haven’t seen how it’s done yet, but I haven’t looked really either. Do you have pictures of your setup? And “adjustment” to the fuel rail makes it sound easy! Hah

[K9 240]

Sorry - I didn't take any photo's at the time. I remember the normal fuel rail fit the spacing of the K-jet injector holes. The main problem is the regulator. In order to keep it in the stock position I had to bend one of the mounting tabs through 90 degrees. It still bolts on & off ok, but is just a bit fiddly.
I know at the time Wagner on here had already done this & had a very nice set up - he used an aftermarket fuel rail & re-positioned the regulator lower down. I was trying to keep it looking relatively stockish.
Tim

[klr142]

That's cool. You had to make injector mounting tabs on the K-jet intake manifold as well, but otherwise it worked, basically?

[klr142]

Found some more injectors that work for stock+ turbocharged 8V applications:

White Bosch 0 280 155 868 / 0 280 155 811 / 62203 are EV6 injectors from the supercharged 3800 GM motors and they have a 15° cone spray pattern with 12ohm resistance and a 34/35lb or 354-373cc flow rate at 3bar depending on where you look. They're also readily available NEW for not too bad if you don't want to go with used ones. They should support about 25-30hp more than the stock 0 280 150 804 injectors on a turbo car(low impedance, used with resistor pack) and over 275hp on a non-turbo car running pump gas. On E85 they're good for over 180whp/210hp in a non-turbo car.

User Lummert has used them with good results on his car:

Originally Posted by lummert

I'm running Bosch 0 280 155 811 white composite body injectors from Supercharged Buick 3800 V6. These are 4-hole type, work fine in your single intake port, have better atomization than Bosch Gen I injectors. One note these injector were also used in LS 3 engines at higher psi. I've found these to work best on my 88 765 Turbo using an engine coolant temp sensor from a BMW, Bosch 0 280 130 023, this sensor has a white insulator.

For higher hp non-turbo 8V builds with 130-175whp in mind, grey Bosch 0 280 156 211 injectors should be a decent match. They're around 25lb/hr and 267cc/min injectors with a 15° or 20° cone pattern depending on where you look(the -931 and -932 injectors may be 15° and the -211s 20°?). Replaces OE P/N: 0 280 155 931, 0 280 155 932, 12482704, 12533952. They're either 12ohm or 15.3ohm depending on which Five-O motorsport page you're looking at, because that makes sense....

[K9 240]

Originally Posted by klr142

That's cool. You had to make injector mounting tabs on the K-jet intake manifold as well, but otherwise it worked, basically?

That's right, a couple of brackets that bolt onto the head using the k-jet injector hold down bolt holes.
I'm sure there were a couple of threads about it when I was doing it.
Tim

[Chuck W]

So, would the wider spray pattern really affect throttle response in a noticeable manner?

When I replaced a the intake and injectors on my MS'd BF21FT, I used a set of the whiteblock "whites" (-766) injectors on it. (Swapped from some old Ford "Brown-tops"). Car runs OK and had been sorting through tuning, but have always had a "dead" spot just off idle and softish throttle response. I've fiddled with timing and fueling around that spot, with really no improvement.

[klr142]

At/near idle, absolutely. How much it'll repair your problem, I can't say, but it's 100% the wrong spray pattern and I would recommend swapping then reporting back. The 0 280 155 868 injectors should be drop in and match the flow closely. Do it!

[turbotankshane]

Originally Posted by lookforjoe

You have a crystal ball that tells you his injectors are working as designed? It is highly unlikely that 25 year old pintle injectors are still working to original design spec/flow and pattern.... I appreciate he didin't ask about replacing injectors that have been determined to be an issue.

I pull and flow test injectors regularly on all makes and models, plenty of old injectors out there that are still functioning properly, I can see why you might think that age necessitates replacement but in this area that isn't necessarily true.

However, I have had to mix and match a set of old injectors and new parts store injectors when a customer self diagnosed a misfire (correctly, I might add) and then was baffled as to why new injectors didn't fix his issues.

As it turns out, just because they're old doesn't make them bad, and just because they're new doesn't mean they work.

If you're not having trouble with them, my advice would be don't mess with them. It's a win-win where you don't spend any money and your volvo continues to give you trouble-free service.

[NotSoFresh]

Originally Posted by K9 240

On the Norwegian thread that Notsofresh mentions in the "Shaving the head for bigger bangs" (post #15) they talk about using a non K-jet head & drilling the bosses which are still present in the later heads, so trying to find a K-jet head would not be a big problem

http://forum.vccn.no/showthread.php?...60-topp!/page8
That thread is chock full of insane redblock stuff.