Volvo Amazon Brakes

[JohnMc]

A friend of mine at work was bragging a bit on how his 10 year old Suburban had made it to 150K miles. Wow! OK....


Then a month or so later he was saying how he was driving it on the highway and the brake pedal went to the floor. Rusted out brake lines.

[Toybox]

Originally Posted by spock345

I assume this sort of brake line is similar to the cupro-nickel line you can buy pretty much anywhere now?

Yep. There's a marvelous pictorial of how/why, along with corrosion test results, at www.copper.org/applications/automotive/brake-tube/hydraulic_brake_tube.html. In the introduction, they mention "Volvo began the use of 90-10 copper-nickel ("Cunifer Alloy") tube in their 1976 model vehicles and have been using it since."

However... as with anything, I'd be careful about buying it "pretty much anywhere." Check out the pictures and dimensions at www.cunifer.com of their tubing compared to "the tubing made in Mexico, China and India that’s flooding the marketplace" which doesn't even meet SAE minimum specs. I'm generally in favor of saving a few bucks, but... on a brake system?

[84B23F]

Originally Posted by spock345

...the cupro-nickel line you can buy pretty much anywhere now?

Last time I bought brake line was via GM dealership for a 1987 Olds...sold in a roll. From parts manuals I've seen, Volvo sells it piece by piece....pre cut and shaped, I assume.

[JohnMc]

Originally Posted by MikeJr.

Safer=better
Volvo thought so too that's why they upgraded the late model Amazons to a dual, boosted, system. Plus boosted is so much nicer on a street car IMO.

They're fine on the PV, but it's a lighter car. 2150 lbs or thereabouts?

[84B23F]

Originally Posted by MikeJr.

Volvo thought so too that's why they upgraded the late model Amazons to a dual, boosted, system.

Production 1956–1970


For the 1967 model year, the federal government mandated dual braking system via dual-reservoir master cylinder for vehicles.

[spock345]

Originally Posted by JohnMc

They're fine on the PV, but it's a lighter car. 2150 lbs or thereabouts?

I've found them to be OK on the Amazon as well at ~2400lbs

[Toybox]

Originally Posted by JohnMc

They're fine on the PV, but it's a lighter car. 2150 lbs or thereabouts?

My old Chrysler weighed twice that. Dual circuit front/rear, 4 drums. Felt wonderful.

You are of course correct that more weight presents more challenge, but if the dimensions are engineered well, manual brakes can work very nicely... I'd love to see OP's project succeed. I've even considered modifying perfectly functional boosted systems to become manual -- just haven't gotten around to trying it.

[84B23F]

Originally Posted by Toybox

I've even considered modifying perfectly functional boosted systems to become manual --

Smaller diameter MC-bore increases outgoing pressure for a given foot-input pressure...but more pedal travel is required since a smaller fluid volume is sent to wheels' cylinders/calipers.

Enough fluid volume is required to lock-up brakes. So, will max MC-volume be enough to lockup brakes. There might be a brake calculator out there, but I've not searched for one.

[blakemcelroy2000]

(Deleted)

[blakemcelroy2000]

I don't know if anyone is still visiting this thread, but does anyone know any good sources to find brake boosters with the 2.25" master cylinder spacing? Im fine with welding up the "extender" that holds it off the firewall, but Ive been having trouble finding any boosters themselves that fit. I found an old P1800 booster on ebay that the owner says was in working condition when removed from the car. Does that have the 2.25" MC spacing? Thanks.

[84B23F]

Originally Posted by blakemcelroy2000

sources to find brake boosters

Some companies have tech reps, who may or may not talk to consumers

Top 8 Brake Booster Manufacturer of 2020

Try TRW's search: https://www.trwaftermarket.com/en/ca...&vehicleType=P

[spock345]

Originally Posted by blakemcelroy2000

I don't know if anyone is still visiting this thread, but does anyone know any good sources to find brake boosters with the 2.25" master cylinder spacing? Im fine with welding up the "extender" that holds it off the firewall, but Ive been having trouble finding any boosters themselves that fit. I found an old P1800 booster on ebay that the owner says was in working condition when removed from the car. Does that have the 2.25" MC spacing? Thanks.

By spacing do you mean the spacing between the master cylinder bolt holes? If I recall correctly the 140, 1800, and 240 with a brake booster will have the same spacing. I may be wrong though. Ask the ebay seller to measure the distance for you.

[hiperfauto]

Even if the spacing were the same between the 140/240 booster and the 1800/164 booster the master cylinder for the 1800/164 booster is somewhat unique. There is no vacuum seal around the pushrod like most boosters. The seal is made by an o-ring between the back of the master and the booster.

[blakemcelroy2000]

Originally Posted by spock345

By spacing do you mean the spacing between the master cylinder bolt holes? If I recall correctly the 140, 1800, and 240 with a brake booster will have the same spacing. I may be wrong though. Ask the ebay seller to measure the distance for you.

Yes, between the MC bolt holes. Talked to an ebay seller about a 140 one, and I think he said the spacing was either 3.25" or 3.5". He also had another one that he showed as having 2.25" spacing, so I may order that one. I would prefer to find a new booster that fits though (or at least one that doesn't have a rubber diaphragm thats been around for 40+ years).

[JohnMc]

Originally Posted by hiperfauto

Even if the spacing were the same between the 140/240 booster and the 1800/164 booster the master cylinder for the 1800/164 booster is somewhat unique. There is no vacuum seal around the pushrod like most boosters. The seal is made by an o-ring between the back of the master and the booster.

I guess that's why they can be prone to sucking the fluid out of the system if the seals on the MC go bad? Not just leaking under pressure slowly, but actively being sucked out the back end of the MC even when not in use?

[84B23F]

Originally Posted by blakemcelroy2000

rubber diaphragm thats been around for 40+ years).

How about a Bosch iBooster?

Details - GOUP Automation and iBooster - the mainstay of the new energy era

[blakemcelroy2000]

Ahh, scouring the internet I found that the 2.25" MC spacing will fit on a Datsun 240z, 260z, and 280zx booster with only a little filing of the bolt holes. Readily available remanufactured and only about $100! Looks like a good match.

[84B23F]

7" Mini booster:

https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=338927

[spock345]

Originally Posted by 84B23F

7" Mini booster:

https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=338927

Has anyone tried fitting one of those in an amazon? I've seen the P1800 and 140 brake boosters mounted with the extension tube and an adapter plate. Would it clear the clutch master cylinder?

Might be a good option if someone can figure out a pattern for an adapter plate.

[84B23F]

OEM Amazon brakes were good enough...yes replacing lines with nickel-copper is good

EBC Green Stuff kevlar pads may be another solution. "After the break-in-period was over the car ended up having the best stopping power of any of the 122s and 1800s cars that I have owned and driven over the years....The brakes are working very well with the new EBS "Green Stuff" front pads on the street so the non-original Lockheed brake booster was removed (the original came w/the car) to see how the brakes would operate without it. Was pleased to find that it stops very well without a lot of pedal pressure and resulted in a loss of around 30 more pounds. ."

Problem with power brakes is when off hard surfaced clean roadways, they can lock up so quickly...that's one reason for ABS...when people panic and mash the peddle.

[Jack]

I found 122 single circuit brakes to be great

If you rebuild your system there should be no concern for pedal failure, you can feel it coming on anyway

There’s no need for boosters

[mikep]

Originally Posted by Toybox

4 big drums and no power assist,.

duo-servo drums, which work great with lower pressures.. Non-power (what everyone calls "manual", which means "hand") brakes suck with small discs if you size the master wrong.
Wilwood's master cyl is a close copy of a Datsun master, which came in many flavors.
210 had a 3/4", Trucks and Z cars had 13/16", 7/8", 15/16".
Wilwood even uses the same reservoirs.
Just be careful, too small and you get excessive pedal drop on application.

[dl242gt]

Just remember Henry Ford preferred the safety of steel cables over that messy hydraulic stuff.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by dl242gt

Just remember Henry Ford preferred the safety of steel cables over that messy hydraulic stuff.

So did dusenbergs etc

At the time the steel cables brakes were better than hydraulic stuff

[84B23F]

Originally Posted by spock345

figure out a pattern for an adapter plate.

Not an issue for a machinist with the tools/equipment, but at what price.

I never had a stopping issue with OEM manual brakes (except on ice/snow)...considering how light these Volvo vehicles were, brake peddle pressure should not be an issue....if vehicle is within OEM specs. In panic situations, manual brakes on older vehicles are better, imho. Once a person locks brake drums/rotors at higher speeds, this can create an unwanted accident. ABS braking is a better means, but generally, an experienced driver does not need ABS if braking system is fit for duty. ABS is mostly for "dummies."

Hydro-Boost: The Non-Vacuum Booster - Hydro-boost brake boosters use the pressure of the power steering pump to power the brake booster.