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A cam or IPD VX cam? Auto DD

comanche250 said:
So you guys are telling me a stock T cam with 218/215 duration and 10/10 lift is gonna be the exact same as a vx cam with 245/236 duration and 11.3/10/6 lift??? Well f*** me why aren't we all running T cams in our cars then for the best performance. f*** off with that shit.

What point are you even trying to get across right now? I'm all ears.

Should I not get an A or a VX cam then? Because I'm not spending several more hundred dollars to pull the head, shave it down, and spend a bunch of money on a bigger exhaust. Not to mention all the down time.
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The dyno doesn't lie. Buttometers often lie. What we are trying to tell you is if you are willing to rev the shit out of your engine the VX cam will out perform the T cam. IOW, over 4,000 RPM you will start to see a gain in performance. It's right there in front of you in fancy colors so you can tell what each cam is producing in both horse power and torque at any given RPM. The problem with running the VX is you aren't willing to do anything with the exhaust or compression ratio, therefore, it is almost no benefit to you over the entire range of RPM your engine can safely run, Too much cam in a stock engine generally results in major disappointment for the person spending the money and time to install said cam. It's your money, your time.
 
2manyturbos said:
The dyno doesn't lie. Buttometers often lie. What we are trying to tell you is if you are willing to rev the shit out of your engine the VX cam will out perform the T cam. IOW, over 4,000 RPM you will start to see a gain in performance. It's right there in front of you in fancy colors so you can tell what each cam is producing in both horse power and torque at any given RPM. The problem with running the VX is you aren't willing to do anything with the exhaust or compression ratio, therefore, it is almost no benefit to you over the entire range of RPM your engine can safely run, Too much cam in a stock engine generally results in major disappointment for the person spending the money and time to install said cam. It's your money, your time.
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So what you're saying is, if I don't touch the exhaust or do major engine work, the T cam is the best I'm gonna get?
 
comanche250 said:
So what you're saying is, if I don't touch the exhaust or do major engine work, the T cam is the best I'm gonna get?
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Not quite. What I'm saying is think carefully about your goal/expectation. Look at the power curve of those cams and ask yourself is it worth the time and money to make the change. That's why it is awesome someone went to the trouble to do the testing and to a great benefit to us all that someone found that info and posted it.
 
comanche250 said:
So what you're saying is, if I don't touch the exhaust or do major engine work, the T cam is the best I'm gonna get?
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The question is at what RPMs do you want an improvement. Most folks don't hang out above 4000 rpm with an automatic so peak power from a VX may not be the best route.
 
comanche250 said:
I wonder if just an adjustable cam gear would give me a noticeable improvement.
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No.

The single best thing you can do to work toward your goal is to take the head off and have 1mm taken off of it to raise the compression. That is going to bring you from the as-delivered 9.1:1 (or so, depending on deck height) to the as-advertised 9.8:1.

The problem you're going to experience as you go to camshafts with longer durations than what you currently have is that, all other things unchanged, the power curve is going to get shifted to the right. This doesn't sound like what you want. I'm reading that you want to get out on the highway or turnpike or freeway or whatever you guys call it out there and go 110kph or whatever and when a grade comes, as near as possible, not have to move your foot. A cam change away from what you have is not going to give you that. If you had an M, then yes, I'd say pick one of the two options you presented, but given your current combination I think the T is better than both of those.

It may seem inconvenient to down the car for a few days to do this but it's really the only way to move toward your goal. After doing it you'll wish you'd done it sooner.
 
comanche250 said:
So you guys are telling me a stock T cam with 218/215 duration and 10/10 lift is gonna be the exact same as a vx cam with 245/236 duration and 11.3/10/6 lift??? Well f*** me why aren't we all running T cams in our cars then for the best performance. f*** off with that shit.
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I have a gently ported 530 on a B230F bottom end with more compression, nothing crazy. I have a V in there now and it's killer, amazing power all the way to redline. I threw in a T to test, and it just barely got to 60 FASTER than the V. It's down to the automatic and gearing. For real world performance "I just want to get up hills", from my own tests and experience is a T. The T cam in a ported head and more compression went 0-60 more than 3 seconds faster than a B cam in a stock B230F with the same car to put things into consideration.
 
Okay well you guys are convincing me towards shaving the head. Is it really that simple? Same head gasket and all that? I might try to find a second hand head that way I can work on it while still driving my car. I may as well do some of the stuff that is on the stickied post. Port valves, ect.

I was also thinking about the exhaust, it is the stock exhaust still, I love how quiet it is but it wouldn't hurt to redo it. If I go 2.5" exhaust all the way back, while still keeping both mufflers and the cat, would that give me a bit of improvement? I would probably get a higher flowing cat to go with it since I don't know the age of the one on the car.
 
comanche250 said:
Okay well you guys are convincing me towards shaving the head. Is it really that simple? Same head gasket and all that? I might try to find a second hand head that way I can work on it while still driving my car. I may as well do some of the stuff that is on the stickied post. Port valves, ect.

I was also thinking about the exhaust, it is the stock exhaust still, I love how quiet it is but it wouldn't hurt to redo it. If I go 2.5" exhaust all the way back, while still keeping both mufflers and the cat, would that give me a bit of improvement? I would probably get a higher flowing cat to go with it since I don't know the age of the one on the car.
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I mean you can do some mild porting, but a proper valve job will probably yield more in flow gains with a lot less work.

Get the head surfaced 0.040”/1mm, convince the machine shop it’ll be ok. Reinstall with a new stock type head gasket and rock on.
 
culberro said:
I mean you can do some mild porting, but a proper valve job will probably yield more in flow gains with a lot less work.

Get the head surfaced 0.040”/1mm, convince the machine shop it’ll be ok. Reinstall with a new stock type head gasket and rock on.
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I was going to tell him the exact same thing but I was waiting for you to chime in.
 
Some will say otherwise, but the stock exhaust, provided it's in good condition, is (just) sufficient for the power level we're talking about here. You may experience some placebo effect if you do decide to change it.
 
shoestring said:
Some will say otherwise, but the stock exhaust, provided it's in good condition, is (just) sufficient for the power level we're talking about here. You may experience some placebo effect if you do decide to change it.
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Yep.
The only benefit for 99.9% of people who want a header and better exhaust is that it sounds less tractor-like.
 
Alright it's official. I'm gonna be shaving a head down, leaving the exhaust as is.

I'll come back to the cam selection again. Looking at that graph, the T cam seems to have the best power in my desired highway powerband. Right at 2500 where I sit on the highway is nice, and on the hills when I drop out of overdrive, the torque still holds alright. I still don't believe this is the best cam for cruising (otherwise wouldn't we all be running T cams??) I have the money for a cam, a cam is cheap and easy. I was talking to someone who may have an A cam. I don't see why I couldn't run an A cam with and adjustable gear and drop the powerband down low.
 
I wouldn't shave the head for a T, read up on dynamic compression ratios. 1mm shaved off and a V is similar dynamic compression ratio to a T with a stock head, a T actually raises the compression ratio of the B230F. I'm exploring this right now. 8V are limited when it comes to short duration (torque) cams because the ramp can only be so fast and there aren't any good options between the T and V imo. In the V8 world you can get a cam with the duration of the T but as much lift as the hottest 8V aftermarket cams.

This is a good read for the benefits of reducing the piston to head clearance: https://pbase.com/stealthfti/b230ftshortblock

The valve events thread sticked in perf/mod has a spreadsheet inside that shows dynamic compression calculations. It's a little spotty so I'd double check the work but it's a good reference.

In this video they dyno'd an A cam advanced, along with other "torque" cams
 

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comanche250 said:
don't change the cam, shave the head, change the cam, don't shave the head..... Now I'm just more lost
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It's about dynamic compression ratios. Longer duration cams lower the compression which is a reason people feel the loss of low end power when going to a larger cam like a V, VX, B, K etc. Shaving the head corrects this. M to T actually raises the DCR.
 
OVERDRIVE said:
It's about dynamic compression ratios. Longer duration cams lower the compression which is a reason people feel the loss of low end power when going to a larger cam like a V, VX, B, K etc. Shaving the head corrects this. M to T actually raises the DCR.
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Ahh I see what you mean. I just finished that video. That was fantastic actually. It really does seem the the T cam is the best for my application. I noticed the A cam advanced 2 degrees matched the T cam almost perfectly, I wonder if a shaved head would net me a bit more power in that application. Overall I don't think I'd feel a difference in power at all since these all seem to be within 5hp of each other, and even If I did get an adjustable cam gear and advance the T cam even, I doubt I would feel anything again, especially for the cost of doing all this stuff.

Kinda a bummer, I'm basically stuck with this power level unless I turbo (which involves converting the regina system to bosch which is already and engine pull job for the flex plate.
 
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