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b23f+t 350 whp build

hdBattousai said:
So if i understand correctly increasing the combustion chamber volume will decrease cr? Increasing headgasket size will increase combustion chamber volume right?

b23 and b230 pistons dont interchange because of different bore size right?
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Yes
Yes
No read the quick review of all the variations on reblocks I posted on the thread on Rallyanarchy..

Bore is the ONLY thing they have in common, both 96mm, everything else is different.
 
So I got a few more questions as i slowly solidify my build. Depending on price i might snag the ported 530 from utahgtbric with the enem v15 (if it's turbo)

What exactly is squish and how does it effect CR? How does decking the block change CR and squish?

I also see in another build someone saying to reduce his CR's and likely hood of preignition he has coated the bottom of his pistons with head transfer coating and tops with a ceramic coating, what exactly does this do? is it a good idea for me considering i'm using a high comp engine but trying to reduce the static CR? Are there other options out there similar to this?

Anyone know the pros/cons of an enem v15 turbo cam vs a rsi stage 2 cam?

Edit: Got off the phone with highflowfuel systems and there processing a return for my fake injectors i just have to pay the shipping to cali :e-shrug: better then nothing but now i can get som 63-75lb legit bosch injectors :)
 
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hdBattousai said:
What exactly is squish and how does it effect CR? How does decking the block change CR and squish?

I also see in another build someone saying to reduce his CR's and likely hood of preignition he has coated the bottom of his pistons with head transfer coating and tops with a ceramic coating, what exactly does this do? is it a good idea for me considering i'm using a high comp engine but trying to reduce the static CR? Are there other options out there similar to this?
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squish_(piston_engine)
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/squishcalc1.html

Essentially, squish is the area where the flat of the piston is mated to the flat of the head. Its all about turbulence, mixing and directing the mixture to the sparkplug/exhaust valve. Squish has very little to do with CR directly other than the fact that typically, the more squish you have the higher the CR.

coating the pistons is a great way to reduce preignition. Preignition usually happens when you have a hot spot on the piston that causes the mixture to ignite early. Similar to detonation, but different mechanism.

A good explanation for both is here: http://www.tdi-plc.com/explanation-detonation-pre-ignition/
 
oh sweet good read that'll take a bit to digest thanks man! So i thought that it would increase CR but looking at the diagrams and such were talking a very minimal affect to CR right? I'm just trying to make sure I understand CR's well enough to know that once assembled this new engine won't blow up on 91 from having too high of a static CR while DD (with boost turned down a bit when DD to be safe but peaking at 350 WHP with it up and e85 for everything else)

Good to know so i will prob do that for sure then to try and cover as many bases as i can

Awesome i thought they were the same! similar but completely different from each other ok.

Anyone know any good write ups so i can get a better understanding of cams, lift/duration/overlap etc?
 
quillc said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squish_(piston_engine)
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/squishcalc1.html

Essentially, squish is the area where the flat of the piston is mated to the flat of the head. Its all about turbulence, mixing and directing the mixture to the sparkplug/exhaust valve. Squish has very little to do with CR directly other than the fact that typically, the more squish you have the higher the CR.

coating the pistons is a great way to reduce preignition. Preignition usually happens when you have a hot spot on the piston that causes the mixture to ignite early. Similar to detonation, but different mechanism.

A good explanation for both is here: http://www.tdi-plc.com/explanation-detonation-pre-ignition/
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say it's ALL about turbulence and mixing..

Another part of the ping thing is if we get the crown of the piston close to the nice cool (relatively speaking) head (which just the other side is lots of nice coolant, the crown of the pioston is going to be cooler around the circumference, and cooler aluminum is stronger aluminum....and by squishing "all" the charge into the combustion chamber all the fire and exciting stuff is center over the center of the piston and not lots around the edges...It'll burn and make heat in the middle and not heat the edges and maybe detonate on its own..
When I was going nothing but V4s there were 9:1 1500s which had pistons dead flush with deck so only thing between crown and head was a 1mm thick gasket...They ran fine even with heads milled 1mm..

The later 1700cc version was same 90mm bore and same 130,5mm rods but big stroke: 66.8mm vs the 1500's 56,8mm . So more volume into same 38cc chamber...problem was that there had come into effect a NOX pollution standard and essentially all motors had everywhere could only meet this standard by lowering compression to around 8.0 and Fords solution was to lop 2mm of the piston crown leaving the pistons down the bore 2mm.
Those 8:1 1700s pinged their brains out, sometimes failing the crown down to the first ring groove...cats pistons and they'd spit up a chunk...
After the machinist I work with yelled at me for blowing yup my own motor a few times I asked what to do and he siad get the pistons FLUSH to 4-6 thou out..
And explained about keeping the edge or circumference cool as a side benefit..

Built a 1883cc motor with pistons out .004 and +2mm bore and 10.87 comp and the bugger ran good and no ping on Regula.

So "squish" is not just the turbulence, its about quench as much as anything...
 
hdBattousai said:
So I got a few more questions as i slowly solidify my build. Depending on price i might snag the ported 530 from utahgtbric with the enem v15 (if it's turbo)

What exactly is squish and how does it effect CR? How does decking the block change CR and squish?

I also see in another build someone saying to reduce his CR's and likely hood of preignition he has coated the bottom of his pistons with head transfer coating and tops with a ceramic coating, what exactly does this do? is it a good idea for me considering i'm using a high comp engine but trying to reduce the static CR? Are there other options out there similar to this?

Anyone know the pros/cons of an enem v15 turbo cam vs a rsi stage 2 cam?

Edit: Got off the phone with highflowfuel systems and there processing a return for my fake injectors i just have to pay the shipping to cali :e-shrug: better then nothing but now i can get som 63-75lb legit bosch injectors :)
Click to expand...

OEMs do coatings (most cast pistons worth a dam have had a tin coating) nicely...But I'm very wary of post production coatings...One guy local recently had his pistons coated by some geniuses and they coated them 100%..
Spent a lot of time trying to get that crap out of ring grooves and the pin bore...

Be careful..MOST of the time its verging very near to snake oil...

Millions of pistons have driven bazzilions of miles without soooper doooper coatings..
 
mind blown :run:

Still trying to digest all this stuff and figure out exactly how to get this build to be what i want. For now i'm planning to just dig in and get my hands dirty and do a basic ~160-175hp +t on my stock b230f with what i have lying around to gain a better understanding of my car and more knowledge for my b23e+t build.

Edit: good to know John. If it will help with pre ignition on a high comp decked +t motor i think it would be worth doing but i'll have to find out how to get it done RIGHT if thats the case...
 
hdBattousai said:
mind blown :run:

Still trying to digest all this stuff and figure out exactly how to get this build to be what i want. For now i'm planning to just dig in and get my hands dirty and do a basic ~160-175hp +t on my stock b230f with what i have lying around to gain a better understanding of my car and more knowledge for my b23e+t build.

Edit: good to know John. If it will help with pre ignition on a high comp decked +t motor i think it would be worth doing but i'll have to find out how to get it done RIGHT if thats the case...
Click to expand...


The conclusion I draw is not to bother with snake oil..
And read what I said about small bore---under 87mm bore motors which can have hi comp AND high boost versus larger bore---anything 90mm and up---which can have high comp or high boost but are very hard to do both...like....you can't with 91okt.
 
hmm..

I read all that 2 and i get most of it but short of sleeving the crap outta my pistons walls or getting a whole new block (or pistons/rods but thats moots since ima use my stock one) seems i'm left with figuring out how to make what i have work by reducing the static CR to safe levels to chuck boost at but also try to limit det. and/or pre ignition chances do to a larger combustion chamber... all of this is why i said screw it ima hop in and turbo what i currently have so i can get my hands dirty and get some more know how instead of trying to be a noob and paper build the perfect engine for now till i learn more...

If i was truly worried about hard and/or it was impossible then id just change out my pistons and use new dished ones eliminating this issue all together but instead i'd rather figure out how to make it work along with the how and the why.
 
I got a 19t but I decided not to turbo the high comp motor, I'll do that later to my b230. The high comp is at the engine shop getting decked to sit flush @ top dead, squirterized, tanked, honed and 530 is getting 3 angle valve job, ported intake/exhaust/combustion chamber and valves are being resized to max size
 
LOL just pissing money away.

I guarantee my free 400k mile rod knocking B21FT puts down more power than your "built" engine.
 
sure will (be less hp), and i bet you it will do exactly what i want it to. besides 600$ aint bad for all that work.

Incase your wondering this is actually going in a sandrail and not my DD anymore too
 
This is a very helpful thread for a b23f+t build, mind if I add to it?
thelostartof said:
Figes car has been fairly reliable as long as he doesn't cause his own issues and his is 350whp.

350whp and reliable on these stock redblocks is really not nearly as hard as most people make it out to be. Fige did it on MS with a smaller turbo with a manual, myself I have done it with LH and a large turbo and auto.
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Did you change your compression ratio?
And I'm guessing you swapped in for a 16v?
thelostartof said:
Sure right now it doesn't run because of a cracked header but that is 100% my fault for not bracing the external.
Click to expand...
What bracing did/would you go for to get it back on the road?
 
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