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Go123ignition programmable dist/utcis or Microsquirt for 83 GLT

3

302ftw?

Member
Joined
May 7, 2010
Hi All,

I'm really torn between tearing everything from K jetronic out and going microsquirt with a dave barton harness (which would be so clean and get rid of so much crap) and trying to maintain the originality of my 1983 245 GLT. (https://turbobricks.com/index.php?threads/1983-245-glt-resurrection.370873/)

I know these cars are somewhat rare and I do have resale value in mind in case I decide this isn't my forever car, so hesitant to pull everything out to where it would be really hard to revert back to stock.

On the other hand, I think there is a lot of value in having a classic that is reliable, you can fix with readily available tools and doesn't use systems that are so specialized that only a handful of people hold the knowledge to maintain it.

In my microsquirt research I came upon the 123ignition distributor with programmable advance/retard curves. I understand that it only supports 1bar, which is a shame, but I feel that between this, the UTCIS and a more modern turbo on a 90+ manifold, it would greatly increase drivability and spooling times, leading to a better driving experience. I'm set on keeping the original B21FT along with the low compression, so spool times are a concern for me. The positives of this setup is that it keeps the stock appearance of the engine bay for those purists that need originality in a car like this. I'm also planning to convert to a T5, so take that originality piece with a grain of salt. This isn't a low mile survivor with provenance, its a mystery/unknown mileage repainted car that remains largely unmodified from stock.

My ultimate goal is to create a more drivable and engaging version of the original while preserving the spirit of the 245 GLT like the engineers intended. It will never have 400 hp (although 300 would be nice), it wont ever have coilovers, I don't want solid bushings everywhere. Think of what Singer does, then scale that down to the hobbyist level working in a small garage with precious little time, but enough money to invest in quality parts and to do things right (probably for the first time in my life). I have experience with MS from my last volvo and not afraid of this taking quite a bit of time to get right. I am at the point of pulling my dash to replace it/heater core/ac update and figure this is a good inflection point to figure out the direction of the build before I put the interior back together.

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, looking forward to the conversation.
 
If the k-jet works, keep it. It’s not that much black magic to work on. If the wiring harness is all there, it should last forever (maybe buy a few fuel pumps for spares).

Resale value on original turbo cars is getting into the “why did I ruin so many good Volvos??” category.
 
culberro said:
Resale value on original turbo cars is getting into the “why did I ruin so many good Volvos??” category.
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This is my concern... even with the original motor I feel like the KJet is important from an originality perspective.
 
I really agree with Culberro.... looking back on it from this side of time.

However, in addition to ms and 123, there’s also the MSD 6al-2. It’ll do handle the ignition curves and has map sensor input to retard timing in boost. I’m sure you could come up with a creative way to integrate it without ripping out wiring and disrupting the setup…. Honestly though, the factory ignition is pretty stout,

300hp is just a number. The b21ft is going to require so much boost to get there… you’re not just talking turbo upgrades but drivetrain upgrades… I’m vaguely aware that you can get there on k-jet but the temptation to start ripping things out and going aftermarket Ems will be so strong. I vaguely remember the terminal 11 trick and other mods to help the kjet live at higher than normal boost levels but my knowledge is really foggy.

Suspension upgrades make the car more enjoyable to drive.

If you were to up the compression ratio a bit… from stock 7.5:1 to maybe 8.5:1 (9.0:1??? even) (decking head or thinner head gasket) (and I don’t know how feasible this is… was it really just a safety margin that Volvo went that low in compression ratio??). as well as up the boost a bit… 10-12psi, and leave the k-jet and ignition untouched, I think it would (could?) make enough of a difference in performance to make you forget about further tinkering with the system and you'd still have an essentially stock car that you could sell.

Dunno what I would do. I was precisely in your situation 20 years ago and went the megasquirt route… part of me regrets it. I had set aside all the k-jet stuff but after several moves, ended up tossing it in the bin. Wow... if I had kept it...
 
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@740atl that is a super helpful post. Aware that 300 is just a number and that was more of a *shrug* than actual target.

I'm pretty set on swapping in a T5 from a drivability/longevity standpoint since the M46 seems to be the achillies heel. With taking the focus away from EMS I can focus on chassis stiffening/refinement which I agree makes a much bigger difference in the fun-to-drive factor.

Regarding upping the compression, I'm wondering if anyone can chime in on the viability of head decking as my reading so far has led me to believe that this could cause more issues than it solves...perhaps with valve adjustment? I dont have any experience with this kind of head design, I come from the eccentric adjustment/bmw SOHC world. I'm not opposed to pulling the head as a general measure of cleaning and ensuring engine longevity. Also, is there a head casting that would play nice and help up compression from a combustion chamber standpoint?

Sorry for all the questions - I'm eager to set a direction and start moving that way.
 
You'll like the t5.

There is a limit to the amount a b2x head can be decked... (that's why I also mentioned the thinner headgasket). Something others will know off the top of their heads or your machinist.

I honestly don't know if the 7.5:1 static CR Volvo commissioned the engine with was a safety margin for the early 80's pump gas or technology or not... my guess is yes? If so, you could get away with raising it and gaining some power.

Raising the static CR would make a decent enough difference in power to notice.... and again, this is assuming you stay k-jet.

The small coolant port (SCP) head is preferable... I don't want to quote innacurate info in terms of which was which. However I think as long as you're not knocking and the boost is kept at reasonable limits, people have made good power on BCP heads.... I don't think it's something I'd lose sleep over.
 
This head? Ebay

Yeah, sticking with Kjet I would not plan on going wild with boost. I'd add a wideband to sit in the unused gauge port and standalone knock gauge to monitor. Perhaps a newer T3 based turbo with some more efficient blade design to help spool. Then, perhaps if was dealing with knock Id go with the BTM or 123ignition route.
 
The head you posted is SCP but unfortunately you can't use that one with kjet (it doesn't have the holes drilled for the injectors). It has the injector bosses... you could have them drilled if so desired. The model number of your head is on the passenger side, middle of head, right below the valve cover.

Again, I don't think SCP/BCP is a real factor in the power levels you're talking about.
 
I've kept my car around the low medium power levels for long life. When my turbo was at it's peak 740atl drove it and told me it was a fun engaging kjet car. It was probably making around 200hp? It was making around 13psi when he drove it. You can get kjet to around 1 bar with the terminal 11 trick but above that you are working on retarding the timing more and possibly adding meth/water injection.

If you can find any scp kjet head which would be a very late head from 84-85? Have that flowed for street performance. Keep the stock valves you don't need bigger valves. It's pretty straight forward to get the kjet to around 220hp or so. Which at that point you'll want that T5 trans. You can also have the bcp head welded to be sure of long life. However, I've been running bcp without issue so far at 13psi.

There was a member here named Patrick who made some big power with his kjet cars. Not just Volvos but I recall a Porsche as well.
 
Thanks for the feedback @dl242gt , my goals are fun, reliable, good idle, easy to start, and not a dog around town. I think it's worth investing in the headwork so the fuel system can work as "stock" as possible which makes the above goals much more achievable. I know there is a whole thread on cam profiles, but would love some feedback on combos that have worked well with a 398 scp head and the dished pistons on the b21ft.
 
Well scope creep is a powerful drug. I over revved the engine and dropped #2 intake valve. So, I had my spare head flowed. Reinstalled the enem V15 turbo cam and kept rolling. I have a small list of stuff in my sig. The combo is very driveable and is easy to drive off boost. It doesn't have any real performance off boost either but that's not what it's for. Mileage isn't good at 16mpg as I'm still on the stock 7.5 comp block which now has 340k on it. It's a bit tired now but still runs smooth and starts easy even though it sits a lot.
 
dl242gt said:
Well scope creep is a powerful drug. I over revved the engine and dropped #2 intake valve. So, I had my spare head flowed. Reinstalled the enem V15 turbo cam and kept rolling. I have a small list of stuff in my sig. The combo is very driveable and is easy to drive off boost. It doesn't have any real performance off boost either but that's not what it's for. Mileage isn't good at 16mpg as I'm still on the stock 7.5 comp block which now has 340k on it. It's a bit tired now but still runs smooth and starts easy even though it sits a lot.
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Oh how well I know. Plenty of other projects fell into this bucket. Part of the reason why I am so eager to set a direction and then adjust based on how much I can afford.
 
OttoB said:
I dream a lot of different Volvo- dreams, and there is a one that keeps coming back.

That is controlling the K-Jet frequency valve with ECU. That seems to be doable.
More opening time to FV, lower control pressure and richer mixture.
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Isn't that exactly what the utcis does??
 
OttoB said:
Yes, but with ECU you can have easy tunable fuel and ignition maps, idle and boost control, acceleration enrichment and still everything looks standard
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Ah I see, so utcis plus lambda control plus ignition control. That's kind of what I was envisioning with the 123ignition dizzy and utcis but much more control. So, what is limiting this from happening? Time and attention? Or is there some factor that people have not figured out with the existing frequency valve?
 
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