Koni or Bilstein? 740 track car.

[sloopy]

Right. I forgot to mention I'm in a 240.

 

[Poik]

For a mostly track car either will work, but you will probably get the best performance from a custom valved monotube, be it Bilstein or something else. I've had a 740 with Koni yellows, and then with revalved Bilsteins, and I much preferred the ride with the Bilsteins for the street. On my 245 I have Koni race inserts in the front and Bilsteins in the rear, and it's a much stiffer setup overall but it works.

Just wondering, why do you want to have adjustable dampers? A great option would be to have dampers valved according to your weights and spring rates. I'd much rather have custom valved dampers than adjustable dampers with unknown valving.

 

[poulrais]

For a mostly track car either will work, but you will probably get the best performance from a custom valved monotube, be it Bilstein or something else. I've had a 740 with Koni yellows, and then with revalved Bilsteins, and I much preferred the ride with the Bilsteins for the street. On my 245 I have Koni race inserts in the front and Bilsteins in the rear, and it's a much stiffer setup overall but it works.

Just wondering, why do you want to have adjustable dampers? A great option would be to have dampers valved according to your weights and spring rates. I'd much rather have custom valved dampers than adjustable dampers with unknown valving.

Adjustable dampers would allow me to adjust the suspension depending on the track's condition/layout in a better way than valved dampers would? But I could be wrong for sure about this!

 

[Poik]

If you know how to tune dampers for performance, and know what you want to adjust inside the damper and why, then yeah, they can be great. But if you don't know that, non-adjustables tuned for your specific car by someone who does have those skills will be better.

 

[gsellstr]

I'm on the Koni bandwagon as well. First gen IPD springs made by TME, not sure the rate, but the Bil HD's beat you up pretty good where the Koni's ride so damned nice but still handle. When I plan to push it for a full day I'll crank the fronts up from the soft setting. The HD's were just harsh, also took out mounts pretty quick where the Koni's didn't. Had the same experience with ride quality on the 850...same springs on 2 cars, one with Koni's, one with Bil's, the Koni's were so much nicer, to the fact the dash almost didn't rattle where the Bil's caused so many new rattles. lol

 

[poulrais]

Looks like it's gonna be Konis then. I'd like to find them local though since the CAD to USD exchange rate these days is like getting raped without KY... Anyone as the part# for the sport and race struts? I have nothing against Ben but $1300 CAD + shipping for a pair of Koni struts is a lot of money. I will buy his adjustable strut mounts and quick steer roll correction parts though.

 

[J_pelchy]

I've had both while using IPD lowering springs. I preferred HDs but I think the Koni would better fit the goals you have.

 

[rb92673]

Looks like it's gonna be Konis then. I'd like to find them local though since the CAD to USD exchange rate these days is like getting raped without KY... Anyone as the part# for the sport and race struts? I have nothing against Ben but $1300 CAD + shipping for a pair of Koni struts is a lot of money. I will buy his adjustable strut mounts and quick steer roll correction parts though.

When I priced them out Ben was cheaper than Summit. Are you going to shorten your strut tubes? Koni has a long and short insert. 8610s are single adjustable race and 8611s are double, but you need to figure out your lengths.

 

[poulrais]

When I priced them out Ben was cheaper than Summit. Are you going to shorten your strut tubes? Koni has a long and short insert. 8610s are single adjustable race and 8611s are double, but you need to figure out your lengths.

I bought a set of used Kaplhenke front coilovers from a guy in Montreal. The struts inside were shot. They're at the machine shop right now to get sandblasted so I can't measure them.

 

[poulrais]

Summit is showing 3 different lengths for the 8611... 19.69 in. Extended/14.06 in. Collapsed Lengths; 21.26 in. Extended/15.24 in. Collapsed Lengths and 24.21 in./17.99 in. Extended, Collapsed Lengths. The middle size length is a little bit cheaper than Ben, the two others cost a little more.

 

[blkaplan]

Looks like it's gonna be Konis then. I'd like to find them local though since the CAD to USD exchange rate these days is like getting raped without KY... Anyone as the part# for the sport and race struts? I have nothing against Ben but $1300 CAD + shipping for a pair of Koni struts is a lot of money. I will buy his adjustable strut mounts and quick steer roll correction parts though.

I think you will be fighting the exchange rate no matter who you buy from because AFAIK Koni doesn't import directly to Canada; everything will most likely come from Koni-NA, which means someone along the line is paying the currency conversion... whether you see it directly or not.

It is a lot of money, the strong US dollar has really kneecapped my international sales.

 

[blkaplan]

If you know how to tune dampers for performance, and know what you want to adjust inside the damper and why, then yeah, they can be great. But if you don't know that, non-adjustables tuned for your specific car by someone who does have those skills will be better.

Theres a big $ penalty if you get the valving wrong on a nonadjustable damper. Its not so hard to tune a damper and get a feel for what you like or don't like.

 

[poulrais]

I think you will be fighting the exchange rate no matter who you buy from because AFAIK Koni doesn't import directly to Canada; everything will most likely come from Koni-NA, which means someone along the line is paying the currency conversion... whether you see it directly or not.

It is a lot of money, the strong US dollar has really kneecapped my international sales.

You are actually the lowest on the prices. Sellers in Canada are selling these for $625 per unit + shipping and taxes. So the total comes out at around $1400 CAD minimum.

 

[mikep]

I'm in the "both" camp. I use both and like both. The Koni SA works for street and non-jumping, up to 250# in a strut, but I have no experience with them in the wonky rear position on a RWD volvo. As John V taught me over the phone, you need to control the increased rebound of a stiffer spring, but in most applications the compression resistance is handled by the increased spring rate. Landing a jump or hitting F1 curbs you might need more compression damping.
Stock Volvo front Bilsteins work great up to 150#, the R-Sports are good up to 400#.
Bilsteins shine in real motorsports apps due to getting more compression damping if needed, and having compression that doesn't match the standard rebound settings.
I was talking with Drew about how he revalves his own, and he is working on revalving his konis. Non-standard seals are slowing him down, but he wants the adjustability. He said there is a limit to how many times you can revalve a bilstein insert because you cut a crimp and re-crimp it closed, making the insert shorter.

 

[culberro]

He said there is a limit to how many times you can revalve a bilstein insert because you cut a crimp and re-crimp it closed, making the insert shorter.

That's interesting. Usually the outer aluminum dust seal housing is just pressed into the tube, and you can remove it with some precision hammering. The inner seal is then held in with a snap ring.
The tricky part is recharging the Nitrogen on a shock body that doesn't have a valve on it. I have no idea how that's done
My current guess is they assemble the shock in a chamber that's nitrogen purged, or they use a needle past the piston...

 

[mck1117]

OK so let's answer a related question while we're here.....suppose you had 550-600lb/in springs on the front end, what dampers would you run then?

Part 2, I'd like to lower the car a bit more than the stock strut length allows.

 

[culberro]

OK so let's answer a related question while we're here.....suppose you had 550-600lb/in springs on the front end, what dampers would you run then?

Part 2, I'd like to lower the car a bit more than the stock strut length allows.

What car, what's the sprung and unsprung mass? With that basic info you can get anything revalved that will work for your intended purposes. Also, that spring rate seems really high, even for a lowered vehicle.

My opinion of bolt-on solutions: JRZ through Ben with them being set up for that rate, or something custom from Reiger (which does have 240 and 740 suspension on the shelf, you just have to open up your wallet and max out the credit cards).

 

[mck1117]

240, Lucky Dog endurance race car so punishingly stiff is acceptable. ~2600lb total.

you just have to open up your wallet and max out the credit cards

yeah, this is the part I'm trying to avoid

 

[culberro]

You'll probably be faster with softer springs tbh. Running stiff springs all around could work if you have a welded diff or a really tight 2-way lsd.

 

[mck1117]

really tight 2-way lsd.

We have a Gripper clutch diff. Tbh, I'm not sure what I'm trying to fix, as at least in the dry the car drives great with 550 front /250 rear springs and the regular garden variety single adjustable Konis. It's a little boingy, but it also drives okay enough that whatever.