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Need some weber DCOE guidance

spock345

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 3, 2016
Location
Livermore, CA
Recently I've gotten some 45 DCOEs sitting on my workbench that came off a friend's car. It never quite ran right (B20B with an Isky VV61). It would run ok, but was down on power in the lower RPMs and would just not idle right. Idle was incredibly rough, idle mixture screws were about three turns out from the seat give or take a quarter to half turn. Often wanted the choke on and 1500 rpm. In the interest of him having a functional car, we just put a set of SUs on it that ran great right off the bat and idled correctly at 850 rpm. In retrospect the fact that half the nuts holding the manifold to the head were missing probably caused issues.

The jetting was the following.
36mm chokes
4.5 Aux venturi
145 mains
60F8 idle jet
F16 emulsion tube
155 air corrector
45 pump jet

I'd like to try using these on a B20E or B20F with a D or K cam and somewhere between 9.5:1 and 10.5:1 compression (depends on which parts I decide to cobble together). I could also try them on the B20F in my Amazon to try to figure out how to tune the things. If I were to do so, what in that jetting would probably need to change or what red flags do you see here? I feel like I have a pretty good handle on SUs at this point, might as well learn about Webers.
 
Keith Frank has what’s called white paper it’s the bible, keith is a/the god.


sidedraft google groups, you need to ask to join

sidedraft@vintagetechnologygarage.groups.io

good one

Lotuselan.net

or here


best to measure air-flow, contact Keith through


I think your 45’s (you might switch to 48mm chokes? Depending on cam) and 2L will be close, i bet someone on the sidedraft has input

colourtune or wideband or both

to me, DCOE are very tunable, knowledge and a rolling road is key

have fun
 
Here's a chart I found in an old Swedish Weber tuning book. Every engine is different so use it as a starting point and expect to make changes.

WeberJetReference.jpg
 
Here's a chart I found in an old Swedish Weber tuning book. Every engine is different so use it as a starting point and expect to make changes.

View attachment 24023
Thanks. I've got some friends with spare jets. 140 mains, 55F9 idle, and 180 air correctors. I am going to give those a try and also look into sourcing smaller chokes (34 or 32 seem to be recommended here in the past for street cars) and see how it goes because I have those jets on hand.
 
Once of the really important things to use is the Synchrometer airflow tool. The Unisyn is not sensitive enough for venturi per cylinder tuning. The other important thing is to not only balance the air between carbs but also use the small idle air correction screws to balance the airflow between both venturis of the carb. That will help a lot with getting them to idle smooth. Here is the synchrometer for sale on ebay. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1313&_nkw=synchrometer&_sacat=0
 
VV61 with Webers is not a great combo. It's a tractor cam that runs out of power well before redline.

Switching to smaller chokes will affect jetting across the board. They will increase the vacuum signal and draw in more fuel so you will need smaller fuel jets. It will be more responsive at lower RPM at the expense of high RPM performance.

Don't overlook the float valve size. 200 or larger will prevent fuel starvation at WOT.

3 turns out on the idle screws is too much. You want to shoot for 1 to 1-1/2 turns out.

You might consider getting one of these jet kits for carbs with 34-36mm chokes.

We have a good selection of jets in stock and Redline Weber is local to us. Let me or planetman know if you need anything. Our Worldpac salesman actually works at Redline (Worldpac owns Redline) and can provide assistance with jetting.
 
VV61 with Webers is not a great combo. It's a tractor cam that runs out of power well before redline.

Switching to smaller chokes will affect jetting across the board. They will increase the vacuum signal and draw in more fuel so you will need smaller fuel jets. It will be more responsive at lower RPM at the expense of high RPM performance.

Don't overlook the float valve size. 200 or larger will prevent fuel starvation at WOT.

3 turns out on the idle screws is too much. You want to shoot for 1 to 1-1/2 turns out.

You might consider getting one of these jet kits for carbs with 34-36mm chokes.

We have a good selection of jets in stock and Redline Weber is local to us. Let me or planetman know if you need anything. Our Worldpac salesman actually works at Redline (Worldpac owns Redline) and can provide assistance with jetting.
Luckily my friend's car came with a set of rebuilt SUs in the trunk when he bought it. We put those on yesterday and it only took about five minutes to have them dialed in pretty well. Now that car has the torque it should, which fits his driving style a lot better.

They already have 200 float valves. I've found some comparisons of different idle screw tapers that apparently have a different ideal number of turns out at idle. Not sure how much I trust that until I can find a couple corroborating sources.

I'll definitely reach out when the time comes to actually get them running on the intended recipient engine. The goal is probably going to be midrange power while doing something different than the usual SUs. DCOE 40s would probably be better but this is what I have on hand.

At this point the big question is to try 32 or 34 chokes first.
 
The idle screw tapers are different depending on the model carburetor you have, noted by the suffix of the carb model.

The Weber DCOE 45s you can buy new today end in 152G, the older models end in 9 or 13.

152G style wants the idle mixture screw between 2-3 turns from fully closed, vs 1-1.5 on the earlier style DCOE.
 
Also—make sure you have enough ignition timing (DCOEs love lots of advance as quickly as possible) and that the barrels are all balanced PERFECTLY.

I had dual DCOEs on my 142 (B20F) and attaining solid off-idle drivability/low-speed tractability was really, really elusive. I ended up buying a Lynx manifold from Australia and using one DCOE. It’s been much easier (and cheaper!) to tune a single DCOE. It still makes good power and has really good drivability—I can drive it on 880 in peak commute traffic without any stress.

I found out later that you can use a set of tiny drill bits and solder to help find the best jets without buying new ones every time. Solder up the jet’s hole, drill it out for the size you desire, rinse and repeat until it performs to your liking.
 
When I used a flow meter on my DCOE's, I discovered both of them had flow imbalances between the sides at idle, which certainly made a smooth idle a struggle. Not sure why - I sort of gently held one side of the throttle shaft and twisted the other to get the throttle valves to close evenly and match air flow. Many years of being opened on one side and having a stiff return spring on the other?

Also, low speed and transitional issues can be a sign you have chokes that are too big? The motor might not be moving enough air to create enough vac to get the party going. When my motor was more stock (D cam, F head on a 2.1L bottom end) I tried some 36mm chokes in my 40's, and it was pretty bad. Roared like crazy up high in the RPM's, but transitioning off idle was tricky, you sort of had to sneak into full throttle, opening it too quickly and it would hesitate, stumble, sputter. I put the 32's back on it came with and all was well again. Later on with more stuff done to the motor (R-sport head, VV81 cam) I tried the 36's again and then they worked very well.
 
I found out later that you can use a set of tiny drill bits and solder to help find the best jets without buying new ones every time. Solder up the jet’s hole, drill it out for the size you desire, rinse and repeat until it performs to your liking.
I'm not a fan of drilling jets. Besides the fact that the next guy to work on the carb(s) will not know what the true size of the jet is, the shape of the hole is critical to proper flow. Notice how the entrance is tapered.
73401.JPG
 
I'm not a fan of drilling jets. Besides the fact that the next guy to work on the carb(s) will not know what the true size of the jet is, the shape of the hole is critical to proper flow. Notice how the entrance is tapered.
73401.JPG
I agree--using drilled jets is definitely not a long-term solution. I failed to mention that.

It does help with the tuning process though (buying 4x jets at ~$8/apiece for each adjustment adds up quickly).

I should have noted the correct-sized jet should be purchased once the best size has been determined.
 
When I used a flow meter on my DCOE's, I discovered both of them had flow imbalances between the sides at idle, which certainly made a smooth idle a struggle. Not sure why - I sort of gently held one side of the throttle shaft and twisted the other to get the throttle valves to close evenly and match air flow. Many years of being opened on one side and having a stiff return spring on the other?

Also, low speed and transitional issues can be a sign you have chokes that are too big? The motor might not be moving enough air to create enough vac to get the party going. When my motor was more stock (D cam, F head on a 2.1L bottom end) I tried some 36mm chokes in my 40's, and it was pretty bad. Roared like crazy up high in the RPM's, but transitioning off idle was tricky, you sort of had to sneak into full throttle, opening it too quickly and it would hesitate, stumble, sputter. I put the 32's back on it came with and all was well again. Later on with more stuff done to the motor (R-sport head, VV81 cam) I tried the 36's again and then they worked very well.
I'm tempted to start with 32s based on posts by you and some older ones from volvorelix.
 
If comparisons to 40mm carbs is useful, my 10.5:1 B20 with a late carb head, mild porting, and a K cam is set up with:
32mm chokes
main 120
emulsion F11
Air 200
idle F9 55

It runs well at 900' ASL. Idles kinda high but pretty crisp off throttle and drivable. I get some lean backfire/sneezing in light throttle+light load situations.

The carbs came set this way and seemed to also run OKish with the B cam that someone fitted to the otherwise hotted up motor. The original builder said it had an F cam so figure someone swapped cams for street driving.
 
Check valve clearance and timing first. As stated above dual DCOE Weber's definitely like a good amount of initial advance, my engine likes around 15 degrees. A good working air flow meter is an absolute must. Float level is also critical to a smooth running setup, check for potential faulty floats, plastic ones are a little harder to catch than the brass ones. On that note there are notable differences between new and old style (Italian and Spanish) versions of the DCOE. Most important of these in tuning is the thread pitch on the air/fuel adjustment screws which are approx. 50% finer on newer versions, so 1:2 ratio if you are working off all guidelines. Another difference is the newer DCOEs have more progression holes for better low speed drivability. As I've mentioned elsewhere, working off old charts is a great starting point but I suggest an increase of roughly 10 percent in fueling requirements as modern fuel is watered down a bit from the days of old.

I've experimented with 36, 34 and 32mm chokes in my 45 DCOEs. I've found with a mild cam and mild compression 34mm chokes seem to work well with a strong pull to 6000 RPM but every engine produces a unique vacuum signal. 32mm chokes work as well in 45 DCOEs but start to sacrifice top end RPM and are technically out of range of a 45 DCOE and should be much more efficient in a 40 DCOE because you are creating less of a wall for the air to pass through at higher air speed (32mm choke in a 45 DCOE is thicker overall than a 32mm in a 40 DCOE).

Correct Idle jets are usually the most critical for a well behaving engine as they control how the car feels for most around down driving and that will usually require some experimenting, I've played with both idle jets in the F8 an F9 families (different air orifice sizes) in both 50,55 and 60 sizes to find what my engine likes best. Emulsion tubes are a whole topic unto themselves, it's best to stick with what is known as good working tube, F16 are the most common but others work as well. Generally speaking you'll be working in the 130-140 range of main jets and 180-200 range of air jets, generally a gap of 40-50 between the two works best. Keep in mind you are on the idle circuit up until around 3000 RPM before it transitions into the main circuit. Sometimes I find due to gearing, wheel size, etc. that we are sitting right at the transitional RPM at cruise speed on the freeway and that can be at best annoying, at worst frustrating and there can be a lot of time spent just tuning for this scenario which is second only to idle characteristics.

At the end of the day it takes a bit of fussing around to get these about 75% right and a lifetime to get them 95% right. Changes in weather/temperature/seasons also effect these carbs as well as wild swings in elevation. I've been fussing with mine for about 8 years now on a fairly consistent basis as I'm always trying new things but once you get them close then you are usually good for quite some time.

A side note, quality control between Spanish and Italian Weber's is quite apparent from anyone you talk to that has been fiddling with these for any amount of time. I've had lots of odd malfunctions over the years with my newer Spanish DCOE's that has me ever loosing confidence in them (like cold start valves that would jam open with even the smallest carb backfire because of poor manufacturing tolerances and cause them to run lean constantly). On the flip side finding a good set of Italian versions is getting harder and much more expensive every year.

PS. Please for the love of everything that is scared, do not fiddle with drilling or modifying anything. Jets are readily available and require a minimal investment, if you can't afford jets you shouldn't be stepping into a set of DCOEs. They even make tidy jet packs for a reasonable price that come with a variety of sizes.
 
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Check valve clearance and timing first. As stated above dual DCOE Weber's definitely like a good amount of initial advance, my engine likes around 15 degrees. A good working air flow meter is an absolute must. Float level is also critical to a smooth running setup, check for potential faulty floats, plastic ones are a little harder to catch than the brass ones. On that note there are notable differences between new and old style (Italian and Spanish) versions of the DCOE. Most important of these in tuning is the thread pitch on the air/fuel adjustment screws which are approx. 50% finer on newer versions, so 1:2 ratio if you are working off all guidelines. Another difference is the newer DCOEs have more progression holes for better low speed drivability. As I've mentioned elsewhere, working off old charts is a great starting point but I suggest an increase of roughly 10 percent in fueling requirements as modern fuel is watered down a bit from the days of old.

I've experimented with 36, 34 and 32mm chokes in my 45 DCOEs. I've found with a mild cam and mild compression 34mm chokes seem to work well with a strong pull to 6000 RPM but every engine produces a unique vacuum signal. 32mm chokes work as well in 45 DCOEs but start to sacrifice top end RPM and are technically out of range of a 45 DCOE and should be much more efficient in a 40 DCOE because you are creating less of a wall for the air to pass through at higher air speed (32mm choke in a 45 DCOE is thicker overall than a 32mm in a 40 DCOE).

Correct Idle jets are usually the most critical for a well behaving engine as they control how the car feels for most around down driving and that will usually require some experimenting, I've played with both idle jets in the F8 an F9 families (different air orifice sizes) in both 50,55 and 60 sizes to find what my engine likes best. Emulsion tubes are a whole topic unto themselves, it's best to stick with what is known as good working tube, F16 are the most common but others work as well. Generally speaking you'll be working in the 130-140 range of main jets and 180-200 range of air jets, generally a gap of 40-50 between the two works best. Keep in mind you are on the idle circuit up until around 3000 RPM before it transitions into the main circuit. Sometimes I find due to gearing, wheel size, etc. that we are sitting right at the transitional RPM at cruise speed on the freeway and that can be at best annoying, at worst frustrating and there can be a lot of time spent just tuning for this scenario which is second only to idle characteristics.

At the end of the day it takes a bit of fussing around to get these about 75% right and a lifetime to get them 95% right. Changes in weather/temperature/seasons also effect these carbs as well as wild swings in elevation. I've been fussing with mine for about 8 years now on a fairly consistent basis as I'm always trying new things but once you get them close then you are usually good for quite some time.

A side note, quality control between Spanish and Italian Weber's is quite apparent from anyone you talk to that has been fiddling with these for any amount of time. I've had lots of odd malfunctions over the years with my newer Spanish DCOE's that has me ever loosing confidence in them (like cold start valves that would jam open with even the smallest carb backfire because of poor manufacturing tolerances and cause them to run lean constantly). On the flip side finding a good set of Italian versions is getting harder and much more expensive every year.

PS. Please for the love of everything that is scared, do not fiddle with drilling or modifying anything. Jets are readily available and require a minimal investment, if you can't afford jets you shouldn't be stepping into a set of DCOEs. They even make tidy jet packs for a reasonable price that come with a variety of sizes.
Thanks for the extensive writeup. I'm currently acquiring jetting parts in the ranges you specified. I definitely see the quality difference between the Spanish and Italian carbs having handled an Italian one in the past.
 
I was able to scrounge up some 130 mains, 180 air correctors, 32mm chokes and a range of idle jets. Currently I have 50F9, 55F9, 55F8, and 60F8 idle jets.

So far it idles fine but I noticed something odd, it runs about 15-20 degrees cooler than with the SUs at idle. Any reason why this would be?
 
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