T5 vs. AW71

[OldCarNewTricks]

Hello all,

I am continuing the planning portion of my B230FT swapped 242. I have acquired the stage 2 chips and injectors from Redblockpowered, and I'm excited for the final engine result.

I also recently ordered an SN95 V6 T5 from the wreckers with plans to put it behind said engine. But what bugs me is the idea that this part of the build can cause all sorts of NVH. My goal for this car is just a street rod that is still fairly neat and comfortable to drive. For those of you that have done the T5 swap, would you say your final product fits into this idea, or is it better to just plop an accum. mod AW71 behind the motor and save some money and time? A properly set up manual would likely be a blast, and the M46 currently in the car is pretty fun, aside from first gear. Just looking to glean some information from those of you that have gone through all this already.

 

[sloopy]

I have yet to solve a major NVH issue with my t5, but I will give some input anyway. First, some background:

- The transmission is a t5z freshly built by a reputable t5 builder.
- I have a flat flywheel and a stage 2 clutch masters clutch.
- I have a yoshifab crossmember
- I have a plain old slip yoke
- I have a modified spicer center support bearing
- I have stock rubber torque rod and trailing arm bushings

The major issue I have seems to be a driveshaft vibration due to misaligned u-joint angles and perhaps exacerbated by the spicer center support bearing which is kind of being compressed by the bracket so it's probably acting close to a solid rubber mount. The noise it produces is a booming resonance inside the car which makes the car practically unlivable. I'm sure I can solve it. Besides that, there are other noises:

- At idle in neutral, there is the typical gear rattle that most manual transmissions seem to make, but it seems unusually loud in mine.

- The transmission has some gear whine especially in lower gears. It's pretty subtle and I actually enjoy this noise.

- The notorious decel gear rattle. For me, it's just a noise and doesn't seem to cause any vibrations in the interior. So far it hasn't bothered me, but that may be because the booming resonance I referred to earlier is overwhelming and makes this issue absolutely trivial.

===

Basically, I need to solve my main NVH issue before I can give better input on this, but I'll add some general input on my experience with the t5:

- Shifting into first and second occasionally gives me issues (mostly when cold, but maybe I need to get more experience with the transmission), but shifting into reverse has straight up been difficult. Maybe I'm not pulling hard enough, but I've noticed that if I let the clutch out a bit while pulling the shifter into reverse, it will pop right into gear.

- I have an MGW shifter with the stock plastic shifter bushing cup. I tried the steeda tri-ax and I like the MGW much much better. The action is smooth, the shifter feels solid, and I haven't noticed any rattling coming from the shifter.

- I have a t5z which means it has the gearset with a 2.95:1 first gear ratio. I paired this with a 0.73 5th gear (I believe the other options with this gearset are 0.63 (crazy) and 0.80). I love this gearset and highly recommend it. The other common gear set has (I think) a 3.35 first gear. That is also great and is a huge improvement over the m46 and m47 gear ratios. I have a 4.1 axle gear and wagon wheels. The 2.95 first gear in my application is good, but I feel like moving to a 4.3 or 4.56 axle gear would be better.

- This thing shifts crazy fast. I can easily complete a shift in what feels like a quarter of a second. Slamming through the gears is a blast and the close ratios make the car feel like a race car.

===

Overall, I love how the t5 has transformed the driving experience the car gives you, but I need to sort out some issues which I believe are very solvable. Also, I have heard that Ben of BNE Dynamics (formerly Kaplhenke Racing) is working on a solution for replacing the slip yoke u-joint with a giubo.

 

[OldCarNewTricks]

Thank you for the information. I think the gear noise isn't hugely a problem for me. Moreso anything like vibration and the like that can cause odd wear and tear over time. My thinking was to stick with an LH 2.4 dish flywheel, maybe stick with a stock center bearing support (if it can handle the power), etc. Sound deadening can take care of some of the trans. noise, I'm sure.

As for the guibo thing, I had plans to take the T5 output, slip yoke and an M47 output flange to my driveshaft shop to ask if they can combine the two yokes, balance it and then tap the output. However, if Ben is coming up with a pre made solution, I am interested in that.

 

[spock345]

I have yet to solve a major NVH issue with my t5, but I will give some input anyway. First, some background:

- The transmission is a t5z freshly built by a reputable t5 builder.
- I have a flat flywheel and a stage 2 clutch masters clutch.
- I have a yoshifab crossmember
- I have a plain old slip yoke
- I have a modified spicer center support bearing
- I have stock rubber torque rod and trailing arm bushings

The major issue I have seems to be a driveshaft vibration due to misaligned u-joint angles and perhaps exacerbated by the spicer center support bearing which is kind of being compressed by the bracket so it's probably acting close to a solid rubber mount. The noise it produces is a booming resonance inside the car which makes the car practically unlivable. I'm sure I can solve it. Besides that, there are other noises:

- At idle in neutral, there is the typical gear rattle that most manual transmissions seem to make, but it seems unusually loud in mine.

- The transmission has some gear whine especially in lower gears. It's pretty subtle and I actually enjoy this noise.

- The notorious decel gear rattle. For me, it's just a noise and doesn't seem to cause any vibrations in the interior. So far it hasn't bothered me, but that may be because the booming resonance I referred to earlier is overwhelming and makes this issue absolutely trivial.

===

Basically, I need to solve my main NVH issue before I can give better input on this, but I'll add some general input on my experience with the t5:

- Shifting into first and second occasionally gives me issues (mostly when cold, but maybe I need to get more experience with the transmission), but shifting into reverse has straight up been difficult. Maybe I'm not pulling hard enough, but I've noticed that if I let the clutch out a bit while pulling the shifter into reverse, it will pop right into gear.

- I have an MGW shifter with the stock plastic shifter bushing cup. I tried the steeda tri-ax and I like the MGW much much better. The action is smooth, the shifter feels solid, and I haven't noticed any rattling coming from the shifter.

- I have a t5z which means it has the gearset with a 2.95:1 first gear ratio. I paired this with a 0.73 5th gear (I believe the other options with this gearset are 0.63 (crazy) and 0.80). I love this gearset and highly recommend it. The other common gear set has (I think) a 3.35 first gear. That is also great and is a huge improvement over the m46 and m47 gear ratios. I have a 4.1 axle gear and wagon wheels. The 2.95 first gear in my application is good, but I feel like moving to a 4.3 or 4.56 axle gear would be better.

- This thing shifts crazy fast. I can easily complete a shift in what feels like a quarter of a second. Slamming through the gears is a blast and the close ratios make the car feel like a race car.

===

Overall, I love how the t5 has transformed the driving experience the car gives you, but I need to sort out some issues which I believe are very solvable. Also, I have heard that Ben of BNE Dynamics (formerly Kaplhenke Racing) is working on a solution for replacing the slip yoke u-joint with a giubo.

If he does replace the slip joint with a guibo my 140 is probably getting a t5.

 

[OldCarNewTricks]

It's looking through the threads of individuals saying that it makes the car uncomfortable, etc. My fear is spending the money and ultimately being unhappy with the end result.

 

[302ftw?]

I dont really understand how a trans can make a car uncomfortable. The INSTALLATION and PARTS USED could make it worse, but properly executed I don't really see a downside. Especially coming from an M46.

 

[Harlard]

I dont really understand how a trans can make a car uncomfortable. The INSTALLATION and PARTS USED could make it worse, but properly executed I don't really see a downside. Especially coming from an M46.

Feel free to come out here and take a ride in my car.

 

[OldCarNewTricks]

I dont really understand how a trans can make a car uncomfortable. The INSTALLATION and PARTS USED could make it worse, but properly executed I don't really see a downside. Especially coming from an M46.

In most cases, yes. But there are quite a few individuals that have had issues with NVH, and many have used very high quality parts and know what they are doing. That, and many different combinations of dampened yokes, flywheels, etc. have been used with many people still having NVH complaints.

I'm an automotive tech, so mild brake pedal pulsation is enough to make me uncomfortable, because I know it's not "right."

 

[302ftw?]

In most cases, yes. But there are quite a few individuals that have had issues with NVH, and many have used very high quality parts and know what they are doing. That, and many different combinations of dampened yokes, flywheels, etc. have been used with many people still having NVH complaints.

I'm an automotive tech, so mild brake pedal pulsation is enough to make me uncomfortable, because I know it's not "right."

Yeah I guess its all shades of Gray (grey?). like, I know I'm putting in something that was never supposed to be OEM in the car. Therefore, I am not expecting OEM NVH.

 

[OldCarNewTricks]

I don't think anyone, myself included, is looking for a perfectly quiet and smooth experience, just a final result that doesn't take away from the driving experience. Which is to say, I'm certainly not expecting "OEM NVH" (which isn't always that good, anyway), just something decent.

 

[Stiggy Pop]

Do you want an automatic or a stick?

It’s a shitbox Volvo 240 set expectations accordingly. Buy a 940 if you want something that’s a little nicer, or modify an old Lexus.

 

[OldCarNewTricks]

Do you want an automatic or a stick?

It’s a shitbox Volvo 240 set expectations accordingly. Buy a 940 if you want something that’s a little nicer, or modify an old Lexus.

As mentioned in the original post, stick is preferred, but only if it is vibration free.

I think the rest is subjective. I personally don't find 940s nicer, I don't really fit in them. And old Lexus cars don't tickle my fancy.

 

[Stiggy Pop]

You need to be more deliberate with your language. NVH is noise, vibration and harshness. Do you only care about vibration or all three? My take on this is that a lot of people are tilting at windmills, they have vibrations from inherent flaws in their driveline. My T5 does not vibrate anything. My delrin bushings, solid motor mounts and heim joints vibrate like crazy. My T5 makes some noise because it's behind a 4 cylinder with a light flywheel, an aggressive clutch, a lopey cam etc. I'm realistic in my expectations of the transmission and it's level of refinement in the application (a modified, 40-year-old economy car with no driveline or cabin isolation) and thus it does not trouble me.

An accumulator mod is effectively free. A t5 swap is not free. I've had a car with a modded aw71, it shifted hard, it was not refined and I couldn't shift gears or rev match downshifts or... have much fun. It still drove like an old Volvo.

Run your M46 for a while, try to get some time in a t5 swapped 240 that's not a total TB hack job and see how you find it.

 

[OldCarNewTricks]

You need to be more deliberate with your language. NVH is noise, vibration and harshness. Do you only care about vibration or all three? My take on this is that a lot of people are tilting at windmills, they have vibrations from inherent flaws in their driveline. My T5 does not vibrate anything. My delrin bushings, solid motor mounts and heim joints vibrate like crazy. My T5 makes some noise because it's behind a 4 cylinder with a light flywheel, an aggressive clutch, a lopey cam etc. I'm realistic in my expectations of the transmission and it's level of refinement in the application (a modified, 40-year-old economy car with no driveline or cabin isolation) and thus it does not trouble me.

An accumulator mod is effectively free. A t5 swap is not free. I've had a car with a modded aw71, it shifted hard, it was not refined and I couldn't shift gears or rev match downshifts or... have much fun. It still drove like an old Volvo.

Run your M46 for a while, try to get some time in a t5 swapped 240 that's not a total TB hack job and see how you find it.

That's exactly the info I was shooting to gather. Sorry, it was a quick mid workshift post. Basically, any excessive NVH of all kinds isn't great. By excessive, I'm specifically talking about the sort that makes you feel like your car is shaking itself to death. But I have no problem with the vibrations and noise from a redblock, since they are pre balance shaft and whatnot. Nor do I expect the T5 to feel like a modern ZF 6 speed or anything.

I'm absolutely fine spending the money to swap the T5 in, and do it right, just wanted to make certain that the transmission itself wasn't part of the complaints here.

My plan, as above, is to use the heavier flywheel or the STS one, and rubber mounts all around.

 

[cosbySweater]

Is this planned guibo bolt on? As in yoke bolted onto the output shaft?

Also I vote aw71. With the right sized turbo they are great

 

[VB242]

I've said this in other threads, if you can isolate the cross member better the T5 nvh goes away. I used an M47 cross member and added 1/4" thick rubber shims to between the cm and the body.

 

[Stiggy Pop]

I've said this in other threads, if you can isolate the cross member better the T5 nvh goes away. I used an M47 cross member and added 1/4" thick rubber shims to between the cm and the body.

I'd like to give that a try. I did it with the center support bearing and it helped a teeny tiny bit. IDK it's hard to hear anything over the dashboard buzzing in my car

 

[sloopy]

The center support bearing is already isolated by a big rubber donut. Are you saying you added additional isolation between the center support bearing bracket and the frame? I don't see how that would help.

 

[Stiggy Pop]

The center support bearing is already isolated by a big rubber donut. Are you saying you added additional isolation between the center support bearing bracket and the frame? I don't see how that would help.

I spaced it off the body with with a 1/4" aluminum plate to dial in driveshaft angles and sandwiched in a thin layer of neoprene to isolate it. I'm running a high durometer 7/9 style bushing to cut down on driveline slop so it's not as squishy as the flippy floppy 240 donut.

 

[GeorgiaTechFan12]

So just drove my fresh T5 swap for the first time last night. I did not experience any dash rattling or vibrations that made me question the swap at all. It was great to drive with the exception of my needing to figure out my shifter bezel. I did get a slight vibration in the shift knob around 2,700 rpm on deacceleration. This seemed to be nothing like what everyone has reported that drives them crazy.

I tried to use as much rubber as possible

• STS lighted flywheel
• Yoshifab Stage 2 clutch/pp
• Yoshifab rubber t5 mount
• Yoshifab 2 Piece front driveshaft
• Yoshifab T5 crossmember
  • May change this out for the STS one as my T5 output shaft doesn't line up 100% straight on with the center carrier
  • Driveline angles were pretty spot on with this, -1 degree on trans and +1 degree on carrier
• Volvo rubber center carrier bushing
• 3 sheets of 1/4 50 durometer rubber sandwiched in between the crossmember and frame rails
• Stock rubber rear suspension
• Refreshed T5z with deeworks adapter kit

The t5 swap definitely added some NVH, but I think a lot of it is coming from the fact the I'm trying to shift higher than the auto the T5 replaced.

I may play around with cross member and angles, but so far very happy with the swap.